The world is steeped in mystery. A conversation with Krzysztof Zanussi

“Całopalenie (Burnt Offering) is an attempt to talk about a gap that has formed in our culture. In it, the spiritual dimension, transcendence, the supernatural – everything that has accompanied humanity since the dawn of time – is disappearing,” claims Krzysztof Zanussi.

To start, I would like to ask, what is happening with the lion?

With the lion?

Yes, with the lion…

Which lion?

The Golden one.

It’s on display at some exhibition; someone borrowed it from me, so it’s not on my shelf at home for the time being. But I do remember it.

I ask about the Golden Lion because you received it at the Venice Film Festival for a work shot in Toruń over 40 years ago. What are your memories related to A Year of the Quiet Sun?

The memory is very sad because on the day we arrived in Toruń for the film’s premiere, the body of the murdered priest, Father Jerzy Popiełuszko, was found in the Vistula River in Włocławek. I remember that the news reached us that very evening, and our premiere was deeply overshadowed by sadness. But the shooting itself in Toruń was an incredibly pleasant adventure.

Before our conversation, we were reminiscing about how, as high school students, we watched you shoot A Year of the Quiet Sun from behind a fence…

That is very kind. We felt that the residents of Toruń were eager, that they endured various minor inconveniences, and that the production brought them joy rather than frustration. Since I have traveled extensively and filmed in many places around the world, I know that there are countries where the intrusion of filmmakers brings chaos and irritation to the locals. But there are also places where people absolutely love it. Toruń qualified as one of those southern cities, like in Italy, Spain, or southern France, where generally everyone loves it when a movie is being shot. You can leave your daily chores behind and see what they are doing on set. In Switzerland, Scandinavia, or England, however, people often say: “Why are you bothering us here? We don’t watch your films anyway.”

Before A Year of the Quiet Sun, you also shot a film in Toruń…

Yes, much earlier, back in the 1970s, I shot The Hypothesis (Hipoteza) here, and I think quite a few people from Toruń would still recognize themselves among the extras in costumes. In fact, I had a similar experience in Przemyśl. I made a film there, one of my first, and I screened it fifty years later. There is a scene where children are swimming in the river. An elderly man present at that screening years later shouted: “That’s me, the one on the left, that’s me! I remember when the film came to our town.”

In The Hypothesis, the role of the woman drowning in the Vistula was played by Stanisława Celińska, who passed away on May 12th, and who was also supposed to appear in Całopalenie.

I deeply regret that Ms. Celińska did not live to see her performance in this film. She worked with me here over fifty years ago, and we planned to return to those times when she was that young lady drowning in the Vistula. Well, unfortunately, she didn’t make it to Toruń…

So Całopalenie is already your third production in Toruń…

Yes, the third, and it would have been the fourth, because I also really wanted to shoot my previous film (The Perfect Number – Editor’s note) in Toruń. Unfortunately, material conditions were not favorable, so I made it in Płock, from where it was simply possible to return to Warsaw for the night, whereas in Toruń we would have had to stay in a hotel.

Will Toruń “play” Toruń in the new film?

Yes, but there won’t be a lot of it, because this isn’t a tourism film, and we shot many of the interior scenes in Warsaw simply because it was easier economically and logistically. Toruń will be visible on screen because my protagonist is a city tour guide.

Why did you decide to make Całopalenie in Toruń?

It’s a bit like when they asked Edmund Hillary why he climbed Mount Everest. He answered: “Because it was there.” So, if Toruń didn’t exist, I wouldn’t have decided on it. And I chose it because Toruń is such a charming and beautiful city. I didn’t even realize it had been so beautifully refreshed. It gives the impression of a wealthy city: repainted houses, decent roads. It feels less like Central Europe and more like Western Europe. A great sense of optimism radiates from it.

To what extent does the script of the new film reflect your recent, dramatic experiences involving a major surgery?

There is a slight trace of what happened to me, because when faced with the perspective of truly passing away, one immediately thinks about ultimate matters, and well, that is what this film is about.

What will Całopalenie be about then?

That question is a trap, because every work of art is always endowed with a certain autonomy. It works the way it wants to; what I wanted to show will never be 100% fulfilled. Just a different actor’s face can make the exact same dialogue mean something entirely different. I am very afraid of making promises about what will be in this film. There will certainly be a reflection on why this world exists and what it is all for. But this is the kind of reflection that has accompanied humanity for thousands of years and has somewhat faded in our technological civilization. It is only in the last few decades that people have essentially abandoned these fundamental questions – likely to the detriment of their own consciousness. As the philosopher Leibniz asked us: “Why is there something rather than nothing?”, it is worth pondering. And to resolve it in your own feeling: do I believe that beyond material reality there is another, spiritual reality? Or do I not believe in it and consider it an illusion? This is a valuable reflection, and it seems to me that it is worth undertaking, even if it is irresolvable.

Całopalenie is an attempt to talk about this gap that has formed in our culture. In it, the spiritual dimension, transcendence, the supernatural – everything that has accompanied humanity since the dawn of time – is disappearing. My protagonist yearns for this, looks for this. The rest will have to be seen on the screen. With this film, I would like to convey that the world is steeped in mystery. What we know about it is just a small fraction of the reality that surrounds us.

You used the word civilization. Recently, the latest manifestation of civilization is artificial intelligence. In your opinion, is AI a threat or the future?

At my age, I could easily say that I don’t care anymore. I expect a major revolution across all social life, but in completely different areas than what people are talking about right now. It’s not technology; it’s a matter of how societies function that will change, because the idea of work is shifting to other domains. In wealthy countries, we face the prospect of a universal basic income and the grand question: what do we do with our lives when we don’t have to earn a living? How do we live beautifully, reasonably, and creatively, even though nobody demands it of us, and we can only set such a goal for ourselves? That is what I believe is opening up as a new perspective.

Not long ago, AI “resurrected” the likeness of actor Val Kilmer, who passed away last year. His AI-generated likeness starred in the film As Deep as the Grave, which sparked huge controversy. What is your take on this?

I don’t think it will go that far, because these artificial creations always seem highly schematic; they are a reflection of something that already exists and they lack, as they say, a soul. But I am not entirely sure about this, because none of us are sure how far artificial intelligence will go. I have a feeling that this is a bit of a self-generated fear, but whether it will actually happen, I don’t know. I’ve had the opportunity to talk to a chatbot a few times, and I didn’t feel a shiver of dread that I was speaking with some demiurge – it just felt like someone was opening an encyclopedia to the right page and reading out definitions that had been written long ago.

How does working with actors on Całopalenie differ from working on A Year of the Quiet Sun 43 years ago?

A Year of the Quiet Sun was a film based on bilingualism, and for the actors, it was a massive challenge because the two main characters – a Polish woman and an American soldier – never actually communicated with words, as they didn’t understand each other. This felt like a very interesting challenge because it involved two different cultures. The American arrived with the full weight of his American experiences, while the Polish woman experienced the world in an entirely different way.

The cast back then was purely star-studded; even the minor roles featured Janusz Gajos, Marek Kondrat, or Ewa Dałkowska. Back then, it was also a form of escape, because it was right after the boycott of public television. And suddenly, a film came along that was an international venture and allowed top-tier actors – who were turning down other invitations – to participate. To have Zbigniew Zapasiewicz in a cameo, you needed the special circumstances that occurred back then.

Will Całopalenie really be your last film, as you yourself announced?

Well, that’s what I said, because common sense dictates that pushing ninety, I won’t last much longer…

“We must not limit the designs of Providence,” John Paul II used to say when the faithful sang “Plurimos annos” (Sto lat) to him.

Exactly, and that is why I am full of hope that perhaps I will be granted some bonus in the form of a few more years of work. And if that succeeds, I will be very happy.

Department of Promotion
Dariusz Czołgowski & Paweł Jankowski